Sports clubs throw support behind Saracens' Copthall plans (From Times Series)
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Barnet sports clubs throw support behind Saracens' Copthall plans
5:30pm Monday 9th January 2012 in News
Copthall Stadium
SPORTS clubs across the borough have sent a letter to the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, supporting Saracens’ plans to move to Copthall Stadium.
Members of Copthall Community Sports Group have thrown their support behind the Premiership club’s proposal to develop the Sixties athletics stadium into a 10,000-seat venue.
The letter reads: “We are excited and enthused by the prospect of an £18m investment to create a vibrant community sports hub in north London.
“We, as the sporting clubs already based at Copthall, are keenly aware the site urgently requires investment in order to offer all the benefits that sport, in all its forms, can give to the community.
“In this Olympic year — potentially the greatest year ever for sport in London — please can we start by supporting these proposals to create a vibrant community sports hub in north London?”
Hendon Rugby Football Club, atheltics club Shaftesbury Barnet Harriers and Whetstone Wanderers Football Club are amongst eight sports groups who have signed the letter.
Speaking to the Times Series, Geoffrey Morphitis, treasurer of Shaftesbury Barnet Harriers, said: “Copthall is a building that has past its sell-by-date. But Saracens want to put proper seating in, proper changing rooms and many other things.
"Perhaps the most important thing for us is that there’ll be an indoor training area with an all weather surface which will enable people to train in the winter.”
Comments(86)
Mr_Growser
says...
7:48pm Mon 9 Jan 12
Lets be clear - this is NOT an attempt to give Mill Hill and Barnet a community stadium, but to provide offices, banqueting facilities, and a dedicated rugby stadium for 10,000 people to watch a professional rugby club, financed and partly staffed from South Africa. There's no connection with Mill Hill or the borough, and pretty well none with North London - the professional team has played for years at Watford more or less since it spun out of the respected amateur club at Southgate. Get real, Barnet sportsmen and women. In Stellenbosch, South Africa, where the money men are,they'll want to see substantial profits after years of losses, and if they care tuppence for Mill Hill or you I'll eat our respected Mayor's silly official hat.
It ought not to be allowed!
Bazster
says...
10:19pm Mon 9 Jan 12
james smyth
says...
12:12am Tue 10 Jan 12
redrenault
says...
7:47am Tue 10 Jan 12
saracenman
says...
8:49am Tue 10 Jan 12
I fervently hope the application gets 100% backing as Saracens are doing something substantial for this borough that should make every resident proud.
Premiership champions- playing this Sunday to secure a Heineken quarter final place (hoepfully at home) and second so far in the Premiership.
The team are doing it on the fleld let's hope that the "supporters" will do their bit.
Just be aware residents that this project will rejuvenate this crumbling stadium and bring world class sportsmen to Mill Hill and open up the stadium all the year round.
We should all be proud and as the song states "Stand up for the Saracens"
beshocked
says...
9:02am Tue 10 Jan 12
Saracens as a rugby club have one of the best community schemes in the country and only just recently won the rugby premiership community of the year award. Look it up if you don't believe me.
I commend the Barnet sports clubs for getting behind Saracens'plans.
Saracens have been going through the consultancy process hence this issue dragging on and on. Unfortunately I think you are right - a bunch of narrow minded individuals like yourself will do their utmost to make sure Saracens' plans to revitalise a derelict stadium don't happen.
Mr Growser the opposition views are supported by a small minority that obviously know little about Saracens. Why should the press back such views?
Pretty well no connection with North London? Are you joking seriously? Saracen's chairman is a Barnet resident and there are a fair few Sarries fans from Northern London (yes even Barnet). The club Saracens was based in North London for over a 100 years! Saracens have very strong ties with North London.
Could you please tell me what the level of the opposition is in terms of numbers? Also what would you do with derelict stadium? Just let it rot away?
saracenman
says...
9:12am Tue 10 Jan 12
Nickyisgod
says...
9:20am Tue 10 Jan 12
Mr_Growser wrote:Interesting views Mr Growser. Does this mean that you wholeheartedly supported Barnet FC's application to rebuild the stadium a few years back?
If this is journalism, I'm a banana. Yet another Saracens inspired press release printed without any attempt to get the opposing views - and, blow me down, the phrasing is yet again remarkably similar to the other pro-Saracens stuff that's been printed.
Lets be clear - this is NOT an attempt to give Mill Hill and Barnet a community stadium, but to provide offices, banqueting facilities, and a dedicated rugby stadium for 10,000 people to watch a professional rugby club, financed and partly staffed from South Africa. There's no connection with Mill Hill or the borough, and pretty well none with North London - the professional team has played for years at Watford more or less since it spun out of the respected amateur club at Southgate. Get real, Barnet sportsmen and women. In Stellenbosch, South Africa, where the money men are,they'll want to see substantial profits after years of losses, and if they care tuppence for Mill Hill or you I'll eat our respected Mayor's silly official hat.
It ought not to be allowed!
Over one hundred years of proudly representing the Borough of Barnet, plenty of connection, no?
Or are you just being a little bit NIMBY over it all?
You reap what you sow and all that.
Enjoy the rugby.
redrenault
says...
9:39am Tue 10 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
10:02am Tue 10 Jan 12
Sigh you don't get it do you? Saracens have been looking to move back to London for some time. North London is Saracens' traditional home. It is difficult finding an ideal site for a new stadium. Also it is difficult for plans to be implemented because of people like you! I think I know a little bit more about my club Saracens than you do.
Saracens will be of huge benefit to Barnet. You just don't seem to any of the positives.
There's always going to be opposition from a small minority like yourself. It's a shame that your narrowminded views are stopping real progress.
Yes I know you take pleasure in inconveniencing people.Imagine if you and your narrowminded ilk actually put as much energy into your own community as you have it into opposing Saracens.
All the energy you have wasted opposing Saracens could have used on something more productive.
redrenault
says...
10:09am Tue 10 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
10:36am Tue 10 Jan 12
Other sites were considered but you don't seem to understand how difficult it is to get a new stadium approved. Surely you should see it is difficult as a small minority like yourself can very effectively hold up a project. There are always a lot of obstacles. Why should Saracens focus their efforts on another site? There are obstacles in every situation.
You seem to be under the highly naive illusion that Saracens are this big bad heartless corporation but they are not.
I cannot comment on the usage. I am sure that holding junior rugby events,corporate events, community events would not harm the area in any way anyhow.
Of course if sensible people agree with us it has to be bias doesn't it? Not that they actually see the benefits? The Mill Hill preservation society are obviously very sensible people.
Nickyisgod
says...
11:07am Tue 10 Jan 12
beshocked wrote:Poor old Saracens. It took them, ooh, all of six months to find the new site in the Borough of Barnet. A site that had, years before, been identified as the ideal site for Barnet FC - a Barnet club for over 100 years, who have spent the last 16 years asking for help with a site in the Borough of Barnet.
redrenault I have noticed you cannot answer my questions. You have no creditable alternative. Simply you don't have a leg to stand on.
Other sites were considered but you don't seem to understand how difficult it is to get a new stadium approved. Surely you should see it is difficult as a small minority like yourself can very effectively hold up a project. There are always a lot of obstacles. Why should Saracens focus their efforts on another site? There are obstacles in every situation.
You seem to be under the highly naive illusion that Saracens are this big bad heartless corporation but they are not.
I cannot comment on the usage. I am sure that holding junior rugby events,corporate events, community events would not harm the area in any way anyhow.
Of course if sensible people agree with us it has to be bias doesn't it? Not that they actually see the benefits? The Mill Hill preservation society are obviously very sensible people.
Saracens waltz in, spend 6 months "looking" and bingo, job done.
Where's the MHPS now? Okay for 10,000 decent rugger chaps to come along every other week I guess? But then they're so much more well behaved than those animal football fans, eh?
Enjoy the rugby in your back yard folks.
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
11:08am Tue 10 Jan 12
For what it is worth from a local residents point of view, I cant wait to see the stadium be used to it full potential. Its a shame to see it slowly crumbling away - GLL have reportedly closed the stadium this month for urgent repairs....! I dont know Saracens' community but from what I have read in the local press - it seems they have worked hard to help the communities they have worked in.
I know my son is getting excited about the idea of Saracens coming - just hope it doesnt keep dragging on! Good luck Saracens
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
11:12am Tue 10 Jan 12
Nickyisgod - think you got your facts wrong there - its definitely been longer than 6 months...I can vouch for that!
Good day all
actorfez
says...
11:27am Tue 10 Jan 12
Just a quick note from a Sarries fan who has some extensive experience of the community work Sarries do.
I started supporting Sarries 15 years ago, aged 7, when some players came to my school. They introduced a 'cashback scheme', meaning that my school benefited from tickets sold to its pupils. I went from being in the development group to captaining the a's at school. We became season ticket holders (Me, Dad, brother and sister) a few years later.
From the age of 10 to 18 I went to loads of training camps and so forth, and have trained with and met some increidble rugby players and some boyhood heroes. At age 17 I captained my county for one game, and as far as I'm concerned I owe it to Saracens.
When my youth side, Ruislip, won the U17 Herts and Middlesex League Saracens had an awards presentation taking place at Vicarage Road, the entire team got tickets, all the Dads and Mums, we had a cup, a victory parade and were presented with ties. This was massive for me.
At age 16 I got my RFU coaching level 1 through a scheme Saracens were running for coaches with a team mate of mine.
My sister has taken part in huge amounts of training camps, and is now playing fly-half for Middlesex U18s Girls side, and has represented (and is trialling for in a few weeks again!) the divisional side. She wrote to Saracens, asking them to visit her school, which is all girls, which they did, had an assembly and all sorts of things, and as a result she has five or six friends playing touch rugby with her at the Youth Games.
I was injured at age 18 stopping me from playing for about a year, and I haven't really broken into a side since, but all through Uni I have gone and will continue to go to Sarries every week. I coach my sister's side in the morning and then we all head off to VR to watch them.
On an even more personal note, when I snapped my AC ligament in my shoulder at age 15, the week before the county trials, I wrote to Hugh Vyvyan (Saracens Captain at the time) telling him that I was taking inspiration from his return from injury to beat Wasps at home. He wrote a brilliant letter back, and then when I met him a few years later, he not only remembered my letter, but knew I was jetting off in a few days for a tour of South Africa.
I appreciate this is a madly long post, and I'm sorry, but I want the people of this area to understand that Saracens are a huge part of my life because they gave all this to me, and they are a fantastic community side who will make a huge difference wherever they end up. Barnet is a lot further than Watford for us, there would then be at least 2 Prem sides closer to home, but I will always support Sarries. They could make this difference to kids in your area too.
Thanks for being patient!
redrenault
says...
11:40am Tue 10 Jan 12
RR
beshocked
says...
12:02pm Tue 10 Jan 12
Don't you see that virtually everything you say is flawed and has no foundation? Why is Barnet the wrong place?
You haven't actually given a properly grounded argument how Saracens' plans are bad. Stop dodging the questions like a politician!
You have given no alternative plans to those of Saracens. All I have heard from you is negativity.
Why would an independent society be any more reliable than anyone else? You say protect instead I see more red tape.
What's it got to do with the green belt anyway? A new stadium will be built in place of the current derelict one surely?
ross86
says...
12:22pm Tue 10 Jan 12
With that said, Get them in!
It is a 10,000 seater stadium for gods sake, that is a small stadium and will not impact the green belt, modern stadiums look great visually and will blend into the surroundings. There are already swimming pools and driving ranges already there anyway!
I think this whole arguement is becoming a waste of peoples time and a drain on local resources as there are plenty of other local issues at hand that require the councils attention!
They are a successful sports club with a great community reputation. Look at the earlier post by Actor Fez and tell me that you dont want that for the children in our community!
Nickyisgod
says...
12:44pm Tue 10 Jan 12
Lionel, Hendon NW4 wrote:6 months was based on this article which announced the move back in May last year.
Imagine if Barnet's 20,000 stadium seater got the go ahead - then the roads really would be a nightmare!!
Nickyisgod - think you got your facts wrong there - its definitely been longer than 6 months...I can vouch for that!
Good day all
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/sport/rugbyun
ion/club/8100308/Sar
acens-defeat-to-Exet
er-tempered-by-news-
of-move-to-Barnet-Co
pthall-Stadium-in-20
11.html
As you are able to vouch for it. How long was it? 1 year? 2 years?
Was it 16 years? That's how long Barnet FC have been actively looking. Had the council been as helpful with Barnet FC as they appear to have been with Saracens, things would have been different.
beshocked
says...
1:58pm Tue 10 Jan 12
/news/uk-england-lon
don-11638268
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/sport1/hi/rugby_un
ion/my_club/saracens
/9175247.stm
You could argue Barnet Fc have been hard done by but that's now the past. Barnet Fc have not offered a counter offer of plans for Barnet Copthall currently. Evidently they are not that interested anymore.
At the moment there is one offer on the table from Saracens with no other rivals.
DannyMan
says...
3:41pm Tue 10 Jan 12
DannyMan
says...
4:03pm Tue 10 Jan 12
redrenault
says...
4:30pm Tue 10 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
5:12pm Tue 10 Jan 12
I can't be bothered to answer your questions till you answer mine.
It is very bold of you to accuse the integrity of all those involved simply because you disagree. Certainly with no evidence. It seems like sour grapes on your part. You are treading on dangerous ground. Make sure you don't slip.
Highly amusing you accuse others of lacking integrity when one of your biggest supporters - Brian Coleman is famed for his controversy and scandals. You can read all about them online.
Reliance on the judicial review now? Smacks of desperation. Also shows you believe the plans will be approved which can only be a good thing.
DannyMan
says...
5:19pm Tue 10 Jan 12
DannyMan
says...
5:25pm Tue 10 Jan 12
Mac 68 L
says...
8:30pm Tue 10 Jan 12
I quite appreciate the fact that you may believe bringing people into Barnet is a bad thing. However, as has already been said a lot of your concerns seem to be lacking logical thought. How many people visit the current sporting resources currently each year? Did you object to the development of those resources?
Saracens would not bring in a crowd of 20,000 for each game...that's beyond the wildest dreams of anyone associated with the club. If you are to argue against the proposal, a dose of reality helps.
Yes I am a Saracens supporter. No moving to Barnet is not a straightforward journey, nor quicker, probably longer. However, i will still support a club who, in my opinion believes in investing time and money in local community activities. No I'm not paid by Sarries.
saracenman
says...
9:12pm Tue 10 Jan 12
Saracnes coming into Copthall is a boost for Barnet
The n ew stadium is only going to have 18 days with rugby and a rugby match lsts 80 minutes!
The stadium will be open all year round for athletes and clubs and will boast world class training facilities.
Wake up to the realities of life.
Bazster
says...
9:18pm Tue 10 Jan 12
Bad .. Congestion, noise, traffic, green belt, no infrastructure, just for starters. Distrust of the management and their plans / intentions of the site moving forward.. Underhand and manipulative during planning process..lack of detail and too many of the issues to be addressed once on site !! issues which residents feel strongly about.
There are alternative sites even EG has looked at them, but Copthall is the financial gem they want ..so throw enough promises at the council. save them cash and voila they get what they want.
A truly independent committee .. not a council just trying to balance the books !! that would be a body the locals would respect. Members of the CCI for example.
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
9:52pm Tue 10 Jan 12
You dont happen to actually be in the CCI do you now?!
beshocked
says...
9:25am Wed 11 Jan 12
One of your biggest supporters - Brian Coleman hugely damages your case. He is a pro car politician and it seems is unpopular in Barnet.
http://www.times-ser
ies.co.uk/news/90244
31.Borough_worst_for
_road_deaths_in_Lond
on/
Green belt? I thought the old stadium is being replaced. How is that affecting the green belt? The benefits far outweigh these anyway.
Underhand and manipulative during planning process? You'll have to be a little more specific. Do you have any evidence? Lack of detail? Well that's in your opinion. Is there any chance you would budge your stance whatever Saracens do?
If the plans are approved are you like your friend redrenault going to accuse those who support the plans as lacking integrity?
If you really want to make progress then you have to give positive suggestions and tweaks. Solely negative comments aren't going to work.
You call Copthall a financial gem. I wouldn't call it that. It's not about the money. It's about creating a legacy, a true home for Saracens which will benefit all within close vicinity.
ekrugby
says...
8:21pm Wed 11 Jan 12
Bazster
says...
9:57pm Wed 11 Jan 12
You have seen an opportunity - and grabbed it . i cant blame you but locals wil fight you every step of the way .. even if you get in.
Saracen man , you are nieve to think it is only 80mins... our whole Saturday afternoon will be a write off.. forget about easy access to our own streets or having family come round on a saturday .. thats what it means. I cant see you being so accomodating.
Schools will still be using Copthall as they have for years... Athletics will get funding from another source.. even the coaches have admitted they would happily entertain an alternative source of funding - if one was to materialise !.. The head man and cheque book of the athletics squad is not respected .. his top guys do not even train at copthal they are flown in when required for photo calls and competitions.. ! make of that as
you will.
Sorry no matter what you propose we would rather you find another site .. away from us to enjoy throwing around a funny shaped ball rather than opposite us on a precious weekend.
saracenman
says...
11:10pm Wed 11 Jan 12
Bazster
says...
7:55am Thu 12 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
9:23am Thu 12 Jan 12
When you say "many" what number are we talking about?
I am not saying that people enjoy congestion. Who does? There are two sides to every argument. It's a shame you only see one side.
My point is you have to look at the benefits Saracens will bring. Do you genuinely feel that there are no benefits to a move?
You don't get it do you? There would have always been opposition wherever Saracens chose to go. You don't seem to understand how difficult it is to find an ideal site in North London. North London does need a premier rugby club.
You have to accept that a substantially higher number of people want this move to happen.
Again I say thank you everyone who has supported Saracens' plans so far.
Whatever Saracens propose you won't budge? Well so much for cordiality.
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
9:34am Thu 12 Jan 12
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
9:35am Thu 12 Jan 12
barnetpete
says...
10:37am Thu 12 Jan 12
As a resident of the borough, I am happy to see Saracens (or a sports club) takeover and regenerate the Copthall Stadum and area. For years Barnet council have let sports sites across the borough be an extremly low priority. We live in London, space is always a premium and traffic just a way of life.
As a Barnet FC fan I am disappointed that this site will not go the the bees. Still an ideal home for the Club in the borough, as it is converting a stadium that is already there. But the current hatred of BFC by the Councillors will never see this happen.
As a resident and Bees supporter, most worrying is the Council we elected again doing what appears to be underhand deals, as per the Stationers site.
What I did come on there to say though, was remember that '7 day a week' community use doesn't mean FREE community use, it's not sustainable. Some will be grant funded work that the Saracens Community department will do as free sessions - much like Barnet FC's Community trust and other local charities do, but much of the 7 day a week use will be based on local community groups paying to use the facility.
Mr_Growser
says...
2:03pm Thu 12 Jan 12
Incidentally, I don't see how the fact that Saracens' fast-food and property squillionaire Chairman lives in Totteridge can be a point their favour. He ain't going to be affected! This stadium should not be allowed!
nf7835
says...
3:32pm Thu 12 Jan 12
nf7835
says...
3:32pm Thu 12 Jan 12
redrenault
says...
4:12pm Thu 12 Jan 12
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
4:20pm Thu 12 Jan 12
RR - Im afraid i cant agree with your point of moving to borehamwood etc - anywhere they go they are likely to face opposition. Good luck to them - Copthall is in need of repair at GLL are trying to do this month! Dont see anyone else flashing their cash at the problem that is Copthall.....got any spare £££ RR?
beshocked
says...
4:29pm Thu 12 Jan 12
The situations are different. You might not notice but John Prescott is no longer on the scene.
nf7835 surely the truth shouldn't be frustating? Barnet is part of North London. Saracen's catchment area encompasses North London,Hertfordshire and Essex. Saracens is the closest premier rugby club to all those areas. There are Saracens fans from the Barnet area.
I think they would say they have something to do with the London Borough of Barnet.
As already said yes the Saracen's chairman lives in Barnet. What's your point Mr Growser? You haven't met Nigel Wray so your point is not valid.
I have met him and he's a very down to earth man despite being a millionaire. He's happy to talk with the average Saracens fans. Nigel Wray is a very nice bloke.
Both Nick Leslau (another investor) and Nigel Wray were educated at Mill Hill School which is in the borough of Barnet.
Should all those who live in the borough of Barnet not have a say?
beshocked
says...
4:41pm Thu 12 Jan 12
Redrenault please don't pretend that you have much knowledge of Saracens. You could swot up though.
Saracens are not in North London currently hence wanting to move back to their roots. Saracens had been based in North London for over 100 years, compare that to around 18 in Hertfordshire.
redrenault
says...
4:53pm Thu 12 Jan 12
Nick Leslau and Nigel Wray are millionaires .. and quite shrewed ones at that .. in my experience you do not get to be like that by being nice and throwing cash about.. so sorry do not buy all the altrusitic BS.
Lionel, Hendon NW4
says...
5:07pm Thu 12 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
5:29pm Thu 12 Jan 12
If you are worried that Saracens wouldn't be able to recoup the £18 million you shouldn't be. Do I really need to explain how they could easily do it?
Just think along the lines of branding,sponsorship
, new stadium,merchandise, own corporate facilities, etc. Being back in London would be huge from a branding point of view.
Ask yourself why are the local Barnet businesses and sports club largely in support?
Amateur or not is irrelevant. It's still the same club more or less. Obviously the personnel and management have changed but it still has the tradition.
Do you understand why things are not working at Watford? It is because Saracens do not have a home they can call their own.
In your experience? Do you know many millionaires? Have you done an autopsy or experiment to see how their minds work? Do you somehow see yourself as threatened by them because they are rich?
Mr_Growser
says...
7:48pm Thu 12 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
9:19am Fri 13 Jan 12
can you please stop accusing Saracens of underhand tactics with no proof?You don't seem to have much faith and trust in many of your fellow Barnet citizens. Many Barnet citizens have supported Saracens' plans.
It's difficult talking to you CCI lot because you only look at one side of the argument. To make progress you have to accept that Saracen's scheme has positives.
I cannot say you in particular are a sensible citizen when you are so stubborn and unwilling to answer my numerous reasonable questions.
There will always be negatives when any scheme is thought up. The trick is to reduce the impact of these negatives and make sure the benefits are made the most of. Is the Saracens scheme perfect? No, nothing is perfect. The positives outweigh the negatives though.
If your mindset was used in all aspects of life nothing would be done as you would disagree with everything.
CentralUser
says...
12:12pm Fri 13 Jan 12
No commercial organisation can ever make decisions with which eveyone agrees all of the time. I do not agree with all of what Saracens do.
Having said that, my personal experience of dealing with the club is that they are a group of fair minded and ambitious people who want to do they best they can for all stakeholders, including the communities in which they operate. My experiences include dealings with senior directors, players and office staff. The club has a good ethos.
I currently drive to Watford for matches and have about a 15 / 20 minute walk to / from Vicarage Road. I never see traffic congestion on the way to matches. After matches there is congestion, but by the time I have walked for 10 minutes it has cleared. This is with organised multi-site parking and a match day CPZ.
I completely understand why local residents in Barnet would prefer not to have some kind of additional parking control forced on them for 16 days a year, but given the size of the stadium the effects should not be significant. I speak as someone with family members resident within the Twickenham Stadium CPZ, which has eight times the capacity of the Copthall Stadium development.
My view is that, provided parking is properly managed and controlled, the positive community benefits of having a successful high profile club playing in Barnet will far outweigh the relatively minor match day inconvenience.
If I were a local resident, I would however find one aspect of the whole thing slightly troubling. That is the manner in which the 99 year lease to Saracens was created very early in the process, apparantly with much speed and little public scrutiny or knowledge. When it happened, it seemed a bit strange to me.
Mr_Growser
says...
1:44pm Fri 13 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
2:36pm Fri 13 Jan 12
How ironic you call me benighted. Please don't let emotion take over your brain.
Barnet Council are supportive of Saracens' plans. What's wrong with that? Why is their anything wrong with backing the Saracens' scheme?
Please be clear and concise. Give bullet point reasons why you don't agree with Saracens' scheme.
You are talking in 3rd person now? Ok....
Sigh, can you please explain how rebuilding a derelict stadium affects the green belt in a negative way? The current area has a lot of potential that is being unrealised.
I don't think you have a clear idea of what the green belt is or means. Even looking at the wikipedia page would be a start for you. Your eyes should focus on:
To assist in urban regeneration, by encouraging the recycling of derelict and other urban land.
Providing opportunities for outdoor sport and outdoor recreation near urban areas
Improvement of damaged and derelict land around towns
As long as the likes of Boris,Eric and David believe the benefits outweigh the negatives they will support Saracens' scheme.
My comments are branded as "silly" simply because I disagree with you and you have no answers.
redrenault
says...
2:47pm Fri 13 Jan 12
All the positives you highlight, schools .. kids academy..revenue for the area.. are all things an alternative team running the site – not a rugby team, could easily bring to the area. Possibly not to the same size but in a way MORE people would be willing to accept.
redrenault
says...
2:53pm Fri 13 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
3:43pm Fri 13 Jan 12
I am sure you will use every advantage you have too.
Now we are getting somewhere much more balanced and reasonable from yourself.
By the way I am not saying there are not issues. There are always issues in every situation. It's about maximising the benefits, reducing the risks and negatives for the area of Barnet.
I suppose it depends how you define derelict. The site could certainly do with refreshing.
You say an alternative team could bring all the benefits. Is it really that simple? Where would the money come from? Are their any plans?
Remember this country is in a recession. Times are hard. A financial boost would help the area.
You must accept there is a chance Saracens' scheme will be approved. What would you do then? Continue to fight or would you work with Saracens to maximise the benefits to the borough of Barnet?
Criticism can be good if constructive.
beshocked
says...
3:43pm Fri 13 Jan 12
I am sure you will use every advantage you have too.
Now we are getting somewhere much more balanced and reasonable from yourself.
By the way I am not saying there are not issues. There are always issues in every situation. It's about maximising the benefits, reducing the risks and negatives for the area of Barnet.
I suppose it depends how you define derelict. The site could certainly do with refreshing.
You say an alternative team could bring all the benefits. Is it really that simple? Where would the money come from? Are their any plans?
Remember this country is in a recession. Times are hard. A financial boost would help the area.
You must accept there is a chance Saracens' scheme will be approved. What would you do then? Continue to fight or would you work with Saracens to maximise the benefits to the borough of Barnet?
Criticism can be good if constructive.
beshocked
says...
3:44pm Fri 13 Jan 12
I am sure you will use every advantage you have too.
Now we are getting somewhere much more balanced and reasonable from yourself.
By the way I am not saying there are not issues. There are always issues in every situation. It's about maximising the benefits, reducing the risks and negatives for the area of Barnet.
I suppose it depends how you define derelict. The site could certainly do with refreshing.
You say an alternative team could bring all the benefits. Is it really that simple? Where would the money come from? Are there any plans?
Remember this country is in a recession. Times are hard. A financial boost would help the area.
You must accept there is a chance Saracens' scheme will be approved. What would you do then? Continue to fight or would you work with Saracens to maximise the benefits to the borough of Barnet?
Criticism can be good if constructive.
redrenault
says...
4:10pm Fri 13 Jan 12
If approved there are a number of additional avenues to be explored to prevent the development.. I still feel other sites and communities could be better served and accommodating. I am sure I could help find alternatives that would impact the local area far less than the plan you are proposing ! AND return more on the teams investment.
saracenman
says...
5:56pm Fri 13 Jan 12
nw7resident
says...
5:05pm Sat 14 Jan 12
I think we simply have to agree to disagree ......
Mr_Growser
says...
3:18pm Sun 15 Jan 12
Mr_Growser
says...
3:18pm Sun 15 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
8:58am Mon 16 Jan 12
redrenault you say you could easily find alternatives. If that was true wouldn't you have done or said what they are by now?
Do you seriously think there will be other sites more suited and accommodating? Getting planning permission is always difficult wherever you go. Especially when small pockets of opposition are so stubborn.
You freely admit you will do your utmost to make Saracens' scheme fail. That's a shame.
Mr Growser it's only a reasoned, sensible decision if you agree with it though. Sigh. What I cannot understand is why you feel your opinion is anymore better or right than anyone else. You do not have the god given right to do whatever you want.
Of course you want this to drag on and on with a public inquiry. From your posts on here it seems you are narcissistic and haughty in my opinion.
The majority of people in Barnet including businesses,sports clubs, the council themselves have supported Saracens. Are you going to simply brand them as wrong and incompetent?
redrenault
says...
1:41pm Mon 16 Jan 12
We do not have the.. as you say “god given right to do whatever you want” but I think a 10,000 seater stadium and commercial venue being plonked across the road from us IS an issue, PLUS it just so happens we do have a LEAGL right to complain and for the planning process to follow strict laid down procedures. This may include looking into how a community asset is leased out for 99 years for a £1 .. without a tender process !
Businesss will benefit very little from the club .. the plan is to get as many people on site for food and beverage spend to pay back the investments
Sports clubs .. doubt it , why don’t you ask what is happening to Kentish Town football club and those at Chase lodge ?? I think you will find they are being forced into closure for lease reasons.. Sunday League games ?? hmm oh yes cancelled – restricted at best .. Swimming pool access .. golf access over weekends .. oh yes cancelled or unlikely to be able to survive !! The only ones to be paid off ,,sorry benefit will be the ones a certain greek gentleman is in charge off .hmm
Saracen know of other sites but they prefer Copthall .. so it is they who seem to think they have the god given right to have their way.
kind regards
RR
redrenault
says...
1:41pm Mon 16 Jan 12
We do not have the.. as you say “god given right to do whatever you want” but I think a 10,000 seater stadium and commercial venue being plonked across the road from us IS an issue, PLUS it just so happens we do have a LEAGL right to complain and for the planning process to follow strict laid down procedures. This may include looking into how a community asset is leased out for 99 years for a £1 .. without a tender process !
Businesss will benefit very little from the club .. the plan is to get as many people on site for food and beverage spend to pay back the investments
Sports clubs .. doubt it , why don’t you ask what is happening to Kentish Town football club and those at Chase lodge ?? I think you will find they are being forced into closure for lease reasons.. Sunday League games ?? hmm oh yes cancelled – restricted at best .. Swimming pool access .. golf access over weekends .. oh yes cancelled or unlikely to be able to survive !! The only ones to be paid off ,,sorry benefit will be the ones a certain greek gentleman is in charge off .hmm
Saracen know of other sites but they prefer Copthall .. so it is they who seem to think they have the god given right to have their way.
kind regards
RR
redrenault
says...
1:41pm Mon 16 Jan 12
We do not have the.. as you say “god given right to do whatever you want” but I think a 10,000 seater stadium and commercial venue being plonked across the road from us IS an issue, PLUS it just so happens we do have a LEAGL right to complain and for the planning process to follow strict laid down procedures. This may include looking into how a community asset is leased out for 99 years for a £1 .. without a tender process !
Businesss will benefit very little from the club .. the plan is to get as many people on site for food and beverage spend to pay back the investments
Sports clubs .. doubt it , why don’t you ask what is happening to Kentish Town football club and those at Chase lodge ?? I think you will find they are being forced into closure for lease reasons.. Sunday League games ?? hmm oh yes cancelled – restricted at best .. Swimming pool access .. golf access over weekends .. oh yes cancelled or unlikely to be able to survive !! The only ones to be paid off ,,sorry benefit will be the ones a certain greek gentleman is in charge off .hmm
Saracen know of other sites but they prefer Copthall .. so it is they who seem to think they have the god given right to have their way.
kind regards
RR
beshocked
says...
4:13pm Mon 16 Jan 12
Thousands of opposition? Ha ha. You'll have to prove it.
Yes I do understand that you have more self interests because of the likely close proximity and consequently more of a say. Those who are going to probably feel the most impact from the disadvantages are going to fight hardest - like you and Mr Growser.
I am sure you will put as much emphasis as you can on the expected congestion and the amount of people affected. A little bit of traffic on 16 days a year surely isn't that bad is it?
Saracens are going through strict laid down procedures hence the delay. Saracens have to jump through many hoops. Put up with numerous obstacles put together by a stubborn hardcore minority. You make it out as if Saracens have had it easy. They haven't. Getting planning permission for a new stadium is tough.
As opposition you should know - you seem to believe you have many tricks up your sleeve to frustate Saracens. You probably do.
Why have businesses backed the plans if they don't think they will benefit?
Sports club paid off? Any evidence of bribery?
Saracens know of other sites? How could you possibly know that? Copthall is the most ideal site. It will be of huge benefit for Barnet bar a small minority like you and Mr Growser.
redrenault
says...
4:41pm Mon 16 Jan 12
16 games .. I also have issues with the other events scheduled .. or will they not be using the site outside these events .. PLEASE provide more colour s I and many others would like to know what other events are going to be there..
saracenman
says...
6:03pm Mon 16 Jan 12
You wiull ruin the majority just out vof bloody mindedness - it is astounding!
Just how on earth do you know how many people in Barnet caser about rugby?
Have you sent questions to every Barnet resident?
of couse not just more and more oif the blind leading the blind and the more untruths you tell the more you think the public will believe it - it really is dibolical or you to argue like this based on half baked assumptions.
You are the type of minority person who would vote against any change just because YOU don't like it! You have the audacity to think you speak for the whole of Barnet.
Runner&dogwalker
says...
8:37pm Mon 16 Jan 12
Runner&dogwalker
says...
8:38pm Mon 16 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
10:20am Tue 17 Jan 12
What is wrong with Saracens looking at different sites and then trying to get plan permission for their preferred choice? As I said before there would be opposition wherever Saracens looked.
Saracenman is correct though. You don't seem to have an idea of how many people are interested in rugby in Barnet. Making wide sweeping generalisations proves nothing.
Saracens do not own Vicarage Road. They are just tenants. That makes a significance difference.
You don't think Saracens would build new training facilities? I find that hard to believe.
Other events scheduled - like what? If there is an odd corporate event or two it's hardly going to affect the traffic that much surely?
Still waiting for proof of the hordes of opposition supporters. Thousands you said....
redrenault
says...
10:45am Tue 17 Jan 12
Preferred choice V Local disruption & Green Belt effect
If the team is willing to build a new site there are a number with better transport links, less green belt effect and not in such a built up area !
redrenault
says...
8:04am Wed 18 Jan 12
saracenman
says...
8:35am Wed 18 Jan 12
redrenault
says...
9:08am Wed 18 Jan 12
beshocked
says...
10:00am Wed 18 Jan 12
Causing chaos? A little big vague. How exactly?
I get the impression you revel in red tape. Something that this country needs less of not more of.
You seem to be under the strange impression that there are numerous potential sites out there just waiting and begging Saracens to come there. There are not any.
There will always be very vocal local opposition in any circumstance. Simply because you shout loud doesn't mean you are right.
Green belt effect? I still haven't really seen or heard circumstantial evidence from yourself on this issue.
Why should E.Griffiths,N.Wray and N.Leslau have been there?
redrenault
says...
11:51am Wed 18 Jan 12
Why should they have come along ?.. possibly to see public opinion themselves .. they all seem very distant in this matter .. no engagement or discussion on intentions.. nothing nada . why should we believe them ? nothing is inplace to protect the site moving forward.
beshocked
says...
3:27pm Wed 18 Jan 12
Sounds like a oxymoron to me - I don't like red tape but I like restrictions and legislation to supposedly protect my own interests.
More sustainable and locally approving? Where are these magical sites? I am sure if they existed as you claim Saracens would have identified them. After all the planning permission is a very important one. It is also a long one.
Can you name any specific sites?
Never said Saracens aren't putting in a lot of effort. Of course they are doing their utmost to make the scheme happen.
As said before of course there will be some disruptions and restricted access for some time but that would happen with any redevelopment.Even one led by you.
I have not got a crystal ball so I don't know what happens in a few years. You are looking at worst case scenarios and the negatives. Why not be a little more positive?
Public opinion? I thought the conclusion was already found that the majority of people in Barnet want Saracen's scheme to happen. Certainly the council,numerous sports clubs and businesses as well as numerous Barnet Sarries fans do
Let's be honest you probably wouldn't trust what E.Griffiths,N.Wray or N.Leslau said anyway as you have made your opinions on them and Saracens already.Do you think it would actually sway opinions if they did weigh in with their thoughts?
Will your opinions change? I doubt it.
You can't set things in stone because life doesn't work like that.
redrenault
says...
3:48pm Wed 18 Jan 12
If they were more open and allowed restrictions on ANY additional development the people may believe their intentions. This would include less car numbers.
My opinion may change if there were real benefits not only to the 177,000 Barnet residents but also limited effect on those that live within a 2 mile radius.
You are right things can’t be set in stone but sometimes development is not always growth or in the interest of the community. Simply business.
saracenman
says...
10:42pm Wed 18 Jan 12
redrenault
says...
8:08am Thu 19 Jan 12
saracenman
says...
8:34am Thu 19 Jan 12
Well they don't and in reality we ar eonly talking about maximum 10,000 people for 16 days a year!
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